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Category talk:Defectors
I don't want to leave this in Characters itself, but I can't think of a smooth fit for it anywhere else either. The best I've come up with are Characters By Occupation and Characters By Political Affiliation. Turtle Fan 05:34, February 2, 2010 (UTC) I was thinking--Should this include someone like Horthy, who helped the Allies convict his criminal former cobelligerents, or Antonescu, who tried to make a seperate peace? They remained loyal to their countries, if not to their alliance systems. Turtle Fan 03:11, February 3, 2010 (UTC) Let's keep it simple, leave the alliance traitors out. TR 04:22, February 3, 2010 (UTC) Think we should do an OTL/Fictional split? Up till now we haven't had any historical figures who defected only in alternate timelines, but Booker T. Washington has changed that. I'd hate to offend any Washington fans who happen by and decide that we're claiming he was disloyal to the US because we've married our patriotism to some white supremacist agenda, or something like that. Normally I'd say we should just ban such nutballs and be done with it, but if we create the wrong impression through misleading categorization, we've got only ourselves to blame. Especially since, now that we've got so many OTL/Fictional splits elsewhere, people might start assuming that they are looking at non-ficticious categories unless explicitly told otherwise. We should also think about tightening up our standards for inclusion. We've got people, both historical (Lee Harvey Oswald, Lin Biao) and fictional (Jens Larssen) who attempted to defect but were prevented from doing so; people (Puyi, the Laanuis) who collaborated with an occupier in establishing a puppet state but did not formally go from one established government to another; people (Catalina Ibanez) who sucked up to foreigners after their own nation lost (Catalina may well have remained in England, but the story ended before she could make it official); and people (Judas) who betrayed what wasn't even a government. Turtle Fan 21:38, September 16, 2011 (UTC) :I did express some concerns about some of the people who are included here. See Talk:Isaac Asimov for instance. Just how political does the decision have to be? For instance, I would consider the ATL Booker T. to be a refugee rather than a defector. ML4E 21:56, September 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Point taken with Asimov, but I do think Washington still belongs here. I think a good definition for defector is someone who makes the decision to transfer allegiances to a new government with both of the following conditions met: 1. The mental faculties to understand the ramifications of the decision; and 2. No immediate, immanent, existential threat forcing them to relocate, where such threat is natural rather than social. (The Defective Mongolian Officer faced an immediate, immanent, existential threat if he'd stayed in Mongolia, but he was clearly a defector.) ::Furthermore, for simplicity's sake if nothing else let's say they must physically relocate. That covers the question of whether to include people who are killed/arrested while attempting to flee, and also of people like the Laanuis who stay in one place and find that political control of their home has changed hands. Turtle Fan 23:34, September 16, 2011 (UTC) Defectors vs Collaborators Johnathan has added a bunch of people to the "Collaborators" category that have previously been cat'ed under "Defectors". My gut tells me they are distinct but I am having a hard time verbalizing it. The best I can say is that while both cooperate with their nation's enemies, Collaborators do it within their occupied country while Defectors leave their country to work with the enemy. Suggestions? ML4E (talk) 16:49, September 23, 2015 (UTC) :That's actually a reasonable distinction: ::A defector is a person who gives up allegiance to one state in exchange for allegiance to another, in a way which is considered illegitimate by the first state. ::Collaborationism is cooperation with the enemy against one's country in wartime. :These are the definitions used by Wikipedia, which are direct quotes from American Heritage dictionary. We should probably reexamine. TR (talk) 04:27, September 24, 2015 (UTC) :And going by that definition, even by the broadest sense, there are several here who shouldn't belong here. Hess didn't defect, he had a stupid plan. Himmler tried, I suppose, but the Allies weren't interested. Catalina Ibanez is probably neither defector or collaborator--she went to England, then got stranded. Judas, the Laanuis, Cassius Madison, Karl Marx, Ullhass and Ristin, Jiro Takahashi, and Clement Vallandigham don't belong here either. While the DoI characters and Judas are certainly Collaborators, they aren't really Defective. Cassius was never a citizen of the CS by their laws, so I don't think he can legally be considered a defector. As the CS ceased to exist in 1944, if Cassius is a defector, so is the entire state of Kentucky. Vallandigham got kicked out of the US, but that wasn't his idea, and while his status as a Copperhead certainly made him a traitor, or at least a dick, he doesn't fit the definition of defector, either. ::The articles for Ullhass and Ristin say they remained in the US after the Race Invasion War ended. I take it they were ex-pats but remained loyal to the Race? ML4E (talk) 19:35, September 24, 2015 (UTC) :::Ex-pats or dual citizens. It was clear that they could go to Race held territory and back to the US without either side giving them a hard time. Straha, on the other hand, would have faced consequences. TR (talk) 19:46, September 24, 2015 (UTC) ::::Extremely lenient of the Race, considering both did everything in their power to help the Manhattan Project succeed. If that's not treason, I'm hard pressed to think of something that is. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:39, September 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::From the various articles here on Worldwar, I thought that was a psychological attribute of the Race. Their deference to authority meant they cooperated more with captors (who now had authority over them) than humans. As such, Ullhass and Ristin deferring and cooperation with their new authority figures was less blameworthy for the Race than say Straha whose objections to failed policies and advocating new directions was. That would be interpreted as defiance of authority and so more treasonous to the Race than the actions of the other two. ML4E (talk) 17:29, September 25, 2015 (UTC) :::::Now that you mention it I do seem to recall something about that, at least in the early books. Now I have another reason to wish HT would write an anthology of Home stories: a war where it's considered fitting and proper for high-value prisoners to flip surely has some dramatic potential to it. Send a team of kudnappers to target the enemy commander the night before the battle and he'll defend against, then counterattack, his own forces. What a boon that would be, and you could make the battle in question as pivotal as you want. Maybe it was their Battle of Waterloo, and the Ssumaz were about to meet Napoleon's fate, but capturing "Wellington" took them all the way from the brink of annihilation to world conquest in one bold move. I'd love to read it. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:05, September 26, 2015 (UTC) :I realize several may have already been here, and this isn't all recent editing, but we should probably review this category and collaborators. TR (talk) 04:43, September 24, 2015 (UTC) Proposed cuts Much like the Collaborators page, my proposed cuts: Niels Bohr, Rudolf Hess, Antonio Jones (he's probably more a collaborator), Judas (again, collaborator), Cynthia Laanui and Stanley Owana Laanui (collaborators, both, not defectors), Cassius Madison, Laura Secord Moss, David Nussboym (he didn't have a choice in the matter), Wright Patman (he formed his own government--collaborator, not defector), Puyi, Xuantong Emperor (again, more collaborator than defector), Ristin (ex-pat), Jiro Takahashi (while residing in Hawaii, never considered himself American, could go either way), Jozef Tiso (again, formed his own puppet government, collaborator, not defector), Ullhass (ex-pat), Ussmak (actually a mutineer), Clement Vallandigham (kicked out of the country), and Booker T. Washington (which could go either way; like Cassius, he wasn't a citizen of the CS). TR (talk) 18:48, October 10, 2015 (UTC) :Okay, this explains Nussboym as not a defector but he did collaborate with The Race. Genocidal death would be the alternative, so I suppose that would be justification. I agree with your assessment of collaborator not defector for the rest, the two black men being a push. Do we have enough to create "Mutineer" and "Traitor" categories? ML4E (talk) 19:06, October 10, 2015 (UTC) :Nussboym became a Soviet citizen, quite willingly. In his first meeting with Molotov in Col, Molotov asks about his relationship with his "former compatriots," so he's clearly renounced whatever ties to Poland he might once have had. Thus, he did indeed defect. To the others I see no objection. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:44, October 11, 2015 (UTC) ::But he only became a Soviet citizen after Anielewicz clobbered him and threw him on a train headed east and he found himself in a gulag. I'd argue that he's more akin to a displaced person rather than a defector. Admittedly, a DP through the actions of one man, rather than a country. TR (talk) 18:50, October 11, 2015 (UTC) :::He may have had grievances, but he willingly served a foreign government even after he had the opportunity to go home again. Defectors sometimes have good reasons for defecting, and the definitions of defector and displaced person need not be mutually exclusive. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:47, October 13, 2015 (UTC) I would add to TR's proposals the following: Heinrich Himmler (he never renounced his German citizenship or anything like that, be wanted the English-speakers to treat with him as Germany's new leader); Rhavas (he never served anyone but himself and Skotos, and saw the civilizations and governments he joined as his slaves); Lee Harvey Oswald (the Soviets and Cubans both refused to take him; I've heard the latter actually said "You give revolution a bad name" or something like that); Hamnet Thyssen (more of an outlaw, and anyway, that didn't last--God that book sucked); and The Devil (no idea why he's here, though I imagine I probably put him here years ago). Turtle Fan (talk) 03:03, October 13, 2015 (UTC) :"The Devil (no idea why he's here, though I imagine I probably put him here years ago)." Actually Johnathan added him yesterday. ML4E (talk) 18:40, October 13, 2015 (UTC) ::Oh. Yeah, let's undo that. The Devil never had a national affiliation from which to defect to begin with, so I can't imagine what Jonathan was thinking. (But then, I usually can't.) Turtle Fan (talk) 21:23, October 13, 2015 (UTC) The standard backstory of the Devil is that he defected from Heaven and set up his own government down south. I'm pretty sure no one had this idea until John Milton, but it's become the pop cultural standard for depicting Satan.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:30, October 13, 2015 (UTC) :His own government? Even if we were to reduce the metaphysical to political terms, what you're describing is a rebel. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:26, October 14, 2015 (UTC) Exiles category? Maybe there should be a new category for exiles/emigres/displaced persons. None of the existing cats are really suitable for that, and there are plenty of people in this wiki who fit the description.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:55, November 5, 2015 (UTC) Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were captured while attempting to defect at Varennes. Later Louis collaborated with the invading Austrians.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 04:06, November 9, 2015 (UTC) :I could accept calling them collaborators, but incumbent heads of state don't defect; they go into exile, and take the legitimacy of the state's social authority with them. Certainly that's how they see it, and if they felt otherwise they'd resign or abdicate as the case may be. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:32, November 9, 2015 (UTC) Laura Moss There's no way Laura Moss should be on here. She was a collaborator, not a defector.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 05:54, November 9, 2015 (UTC) :If she's even that much; I would just think of her as someone trying to seek happiness where she might find it, like everyone else. Turtle Fan (talk) 14:20, November 9, 2015 (UTC)